April 3, 2014 - Mark Mazzetti

  • Episode: 10086
  • (0)

Experts claim to have found the Holy Grail, Emily Bazelon weighs in on money in politics, Bill O'Reilly embraces inequality, and Mark Mazzetti talks "The Way of the Knife."

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )>> Stephen: WHEW!

WHEW!

WELCOME TO THE REPORT,EVERYBODY.

>> STEPHEN!

STEPHEN!

STEPHEN!

STEPHEN!

STEPHEN!

STEPHEN!

>> Stephen: LADIES ANDGENTLEMEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR

BEING HERE.

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )FOLKS, IT'S SO WONDERFUL TO BE

HERE.

YOU KNOW, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,IF YOU KNOW THE SHOW, YOU KNOW

I LOVE BEING A CHRISTIAN.

I MEAN THERE ARE SO MANY PERKS-- ETERNAL SALVATION WITH OUR

LORD IN HEAVEN, AND A MAGICALRABBIT WHO PASSES OUT CANDY.

HINDUS YOU'RE MISSING OUT.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT ELEPHANTGETS YOU.

AND THIS WEEK, WE CHRISTIANS GOTSOME VERY SPECIAL NEWS.

>> THE SEARCH FOR THE HOLY GRAILCOULD BE OVER.

>> TWO SPANISH HISTORIANS SAYTHEY HAVE FOUND THE HOLY GRAIL,

A CUP SAID TO HAVE BEEN USED BYJESUS DURING THE LAST SUPPER.

THEY SAY IT WAS HIDDEN SINCE THE11th CENTURY INSIDE ANOTHER

ANCIENT CUP HOUSED IN A BASILICAIN SPAIN.

>> Stephen: THEY FOUND THEHOLY GRAIL.

AND THEY KNOW IT DATES BACK TOJESUS BECAUSE THE BOTTOM READS,

"NOT DISHWASHER SAFE BECAUSE ITHASN'T BEEN INVENTED YET."

( LAUGHTER ), OF COURSE, EVERY TIME SOMEONE

FINDS THE HOLY GRAIL SKEPTICSCOME OUT OF THE WOODWORK JUST

BECAUSE THERE ARE 200 SUPPOSEDGRAILS IN EUROPE ALONE.

THAT'S NOT EVEN COUNTING THE ONELIL' JON FOUND.

WELL, FOLKS, AS A MAN OF FAITH,I BELIEVE THESE PEOPLE ARE

CHARLETANS BECAUSE I'VE GOT THEREAL HOLY GRAIL.

BEHOLD!

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )I DISCOVERED IT THIS MORNING AT

OUR NEIGHBORHOOD DELI.

MERE MILES FROM THE SACREDGROUND OF ST. PATRICK'S'

CATHEDRAL.

IT WAS ENTRUSTED TO ME BY AMYSTERIOUS MIDDLE EASTERN MAN.

( LAUGHTER )IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH ROBERT

LANGDON'S SYMBOLOGICAL ANALYSES,ALL THE SIGNS ARE RIGHT HERE.

OKAY.

LOOK HERE, JIMMY.

THE THREE BEANS SIGNIFY THE HOLYTRINITY-- THE FATHER, THE SON,

AND THE HOLY ROAST.

AND THE WORD "CAPPUCCINO,"CLEARLY THE SIGNATURE OF THE

CAPUCHIN MONKSWHO HID THE GRAIL FROM THE

INVADING SARACEN ARMIES IN THE14th CENTURY.

AND THE CLINCHER-- THAT ITBELONGED TO CHRIST IS THAT I

FOUND SOME BEARD HAIR ON THERIM.

( LAUGHTER )AND I HAVE NO BEARD.

OF COURSE, THERE'S ONLY ONE WAYTO BE ABSOLUTELY SURE.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO HEWHO DRINKS FROM A FALSE GRAIL.

♪ ♪( SCREAMING )

( LAUGHTER )>> Stephen: HE CHOSE NOT

GOOD.

( LAUGHTER )HERE GOES, HERE GOES.

AARRGGHH!

AAARRGGHH!

THAT COFFEE IS HOT!

PUT I'M FINE, SO THAT'S THEGRAIL.

AND I GUESS I'M GOING TO LIVEFOREVER.

NOW, NATION, EVERYBODY KNOWS I'MA HUGE FAN OF THE FIVE

CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES ON THESUPREME COURT.

THEY'RE LIKE A JUDICIAL VERSIONOF ONE DIRECTION IN THAT ALL

THEIR RULINGS GO IN ONEDIRECTION.

( LAUGHTER )BUT TWO YEARS AGO, I WAS

BETRAYED BY THE CUTE ONE, CHIEFJUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS BECAUSE IN

AN ACT OF JUDAS-PRUDENCE, HEVOTED TO UPHOLD OBAMACARE, AND

THAT BROKE MY HEART.

AND EVEN WORSE, UNDER OBAMACARE,I AM COVERED FOR CARDIAC

BREAKAGE.

( LAUGHTER )FOLKS, I'VE GOT SOME GOOD NEWS.

MY BOYFRIEND'S BACK.

>> BREAKING NEWS ON THE SUPREMECOURT, CHANGING THE RULES AGAIN

WHEN IT COMES TO CAMPAIGNCONTRIBUTIONS.

>> YOU CAN NOW GIVE TO AS MANYCANDIDATES AS YOU WANT.

THERE IS NO LIMIT ON HOW MUCHTOTAL MONEY ANY INDIVIDUAL

PERSON CAN SPEND.

THE COURT'S MAJORITY OPINION,WRITTEN BY THE CHIEF JUSTICE

JOHN ROBERTS SAID MONEY ISSPEECH AND THAT YOU CAN'T LIMIT

HOW MUCH AN INDIVIDUAL PERSONCAN SPEND.

HE SAID IF THE FIRST AMENDMENTCAN ABIDE BY FLAG BURNING, NAZI

PARADES, AND PROTESTS ATMILITARY FUNERALS IT CAN ABIDE

BY PEOPLE SPENDING AS MUCH MONEYAS THEY WANT TO SUPPORT THE

CANDIDATES OF THEIR CHOICES.

>> Stephen: WELL SAID--UNLIMITED CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS

ARE JUST AS GOOD AS NAZIS.

( LAUGHTER )NOW, THE CASE IN QUESTION IS

"McCUTCHEON V. F.E.C.," AND INA 5-4 DECISION, THE COURTS

ELIMINATED THE $123,200 CAP ONTHE TOTAL AMOUNT YOU CAN DONATE,

WHICH IS GREAT FOR ALL OF US, IFBY "US" YOU MEAN THE 591 PEOPLE

WHO GAVE THE MAXIMUM ALLOWABLEDONATION IN 2012.

AND IF YOU'RE NOT ONE OF US, YOUREALLY SHOULD BE.

( LAUGHTER )WE HAVE GREAT PARTIES, TWO OF

THEM.

FOLKS, THIS IS ALL ABOUT THEFREEDOM OF SPEECH.

AGGREGATE CAPS UNFAIRLY LIMITHOW LOUD MY CASH COULD TALK

INSPECTOR THE ANTIQUATEDASSUMPTION GIVING POLITICIANS

GREASY PAPER BAGS FULL OF MONEYIS SOMEHOW A CORRUPTING

INFLUENCE.

BUT JUSTICE ROBERTS TEACHES USGOVERNMENT REGULATION MAY NOT

TARGET THE GENERAL GRATITUDE ACANDIDATE MAY FEEL TOWARDS THOSE

WHO SUPPORT HIM OR THE POLITICALACCESS SUCH SUPPORT MAY AFFORD.

INGRATIATION AND ACCESS ARE NOTCORRUPTION.

IN FACT, THOSE THINGS DON'T EVENHAVE THE APPEARANCE OF

CORRUPTION.

DID YOU GET THAT?

INGRATIATION AND ACCESS ARE NOTCORRUPTION.

SO IF YOU THINK LEGISLATORSLINING UP TO LISTEN TO

MEGADONORS LIKE THE KOCHBROTHERS OR GEORGE SOROS APPEARS

CORRUPT, GOOD NEWS-- JOHNROBERTS HAS RULED YOU DON'T

THINK THAT.

( LAUGHTER )NOW, ROBERTS KNOWS THERE'S ONLY

ONE REAL TYPE OF CORRUPTION--QUID PRO QUO.

OR THE DIRECT EXCHANGE OF ANOFFICIAL ACT FOR MONEY, AND

THAT IS EASY TO PROVE, ASLONG AS POLITICS REMEMBER TO

HOLD ON TO THEIR ITEMIZEDCORRUPTION RECEIPTS.

( LAUGHTER )THE POINT IS EVERYONE IN AMERICA

SHOULD CELEBRATE THIS RULING.

HERE NOT TO CELEBRATE THISRULING IS LEGAL AFFAIRS EDITOR

FOR "SLATE," EMILY BAZELON.

EMILY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMINGBACK TO SEE YOU.

( APPLAUSE )ISN'T THIS WONDERFUL NEWS FOR

OPPRESSED MINORITIES IN THEUNITED STATES?

>> LIKE RICH PEOPLE.

>> Stephen: YES.

THE 1%.

THERE'S NO MINORITY SMALLER, ANDWE ARE THE ONES WHO HAD OUR

VOICES STIFLED BY THESE CAMPAIGNDONATION LIMITATIONS.

>> NO, I DON'T THINK RICH PEOPLEARE THE ONES WHO HAVE HAD THEIR

VOICES STIFLED.

WE HAVE PLENTY OF INFLUENCE OFRICH PEOPLE IN POLITICS.

>> Stephen: NOT AS MUCH AS WECOULD.

THAT IS WHAT JOHN ROBERTS ISSAYING, WHILE WE HAVE INFLUENCE

NOT AS MUCH AS WE COULD POSSIBLYHAVE.

>> RIGHT, BUT FOR YOU, THE RICHPEOPLE, TO HAVE ALL THE

INFLUENCE YOU COULD POSSIBLYHAVE, YOU ARE GOING TO LEAVE

REST OF US WITH NO INFLUENCEBECAUSE --

>> Stephen: YOU ARE FREE TOHAVE COLLECTIVE ACTION.

GET TOGETHER OR GET RICH.

>> BUT WE-- WE -->> Stephen: HAVE YOU EVEN

THOUGHT ABOUT IT?

>> NOT SERIOUSLY.

>> Stephen: OKAY.

>> WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TOCOMPETE SO IT WOULD BE SO EASY

FOR CANDIDATES AND PARTIES TO GOTO THE FEW PEOPLE WHO CAN

QUICKLY FUND CAMPAIGNS THATTHERE'S NO REASON TO RAISE MONEY

OR REALLY CARE ABOUT THE VIEWSOF EVERYBODY ELSE.

>> Stephen: BUT, I THINK IT'SBETTER FOR AMERICA BECAUSE LET'S

SAY-- WHERE DO YOU LIVE,CONNECTICUT?

>> YEAH.

>> Stephen: OKAY, YOU'RE INCONNECTICUT, AND IN YOUR

DISTRICT, YOU'RE SUPPORTING THECANDIDATE YOU LIKE FOR CONGRESS.

>> OKAY.

>> Stephen: AND LET'S SAYTHIS PERSON GETS ELECTED AND

YOU'RE REPRESENTED IN CONGRESSBY THAT ONE PERSON, ALL RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> Stephen: SHELL ADELSONLIVING IN LAS VEGAS GIVES MONEY

TO HIS CONGRESSMAN AND ISREPRESENTED BY THEM, AND THEN HE

CAN GIVE TO EVERY OTHERCONGRESSMAN AS WELL, AND HE IS

THEN REPRESENTED IN EVERYDISTRICT OF AMERICA.

ISN'T THAT MORE DEMOCRACY?

>> NO, BECAUSE--( LAUGHTER )

MY CONGRESSWOMAN-- WOMAN--SHOULD BE REPRESENTING THE VIEWS

OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN HERDISTRICT, IN MY CITY.

AND THE NOTION THAT YOU CAN HAVEA FEW WEALTHY PEOPLE FROM ALL

OVER THE COUNTRY WHO GIVE TOEVERYONE AND WHO ARE GOING TO BE

INCREDIBLY COURTED BY THEINSIDERS AND THE PARTY, THAT

WILL GIVE THEM SO MUCH MOREPOWER.

>> Stephen: YOU THINK THAT'SCORRUPTION?

DO YOU THINK THAT IS CORRUPTION?

>> I THINK THAT IS CORRUPTION,BECAUSE --

>> Stephen: YOU'RE WRONG.

JOHN ROBERTS SAID THAT DOESN'TAPPEAR LIKE CORRUPTION.

>> JOHN ROBERT'S DEFINITION OFCORRUPTION IS SO NARROW IT HAS

NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REALPROBLEMS IN OUR SYSTEM.

WHAT IS REALLY A PROBLEM IS ALLOF THIS INFLUENCE.

IT'S NOT BRIBERY, WHICH ISESSENTIALLY ALL WE'RE LEFT WITH

AND IS VERY HARD TO PROVE.

IT IS THE WAY IN WHICH MONEYSHAPES THE POSITIONS THAT

CANDIDATES TAKE, EVEN THIS THOSEPOSITIONS HAVE NOTHING TO DO

WITH WHAT MOST AMERICANS BELIEVESHOULD BE THE LAW.

>> Stephen: MAYBE JOHNROBERTS HAS MORE FAITH IN

AMERICAN PEOPLE AND BILLIONAIRESLIKE THAN YOU DO.

>> HE HAS A LOT MORE FAITH INBILLIONAIRES THAN I DO,

BUT IN JUSTICE BREYER'S DISSENTYOU HAVE THE CONCERN OF ALL THE

OTHER CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY.

WHEN THE FRAMERS WERE TRYING TOFIGURE OUT HOW THE ELECTIONS

SHOULD WORK.

THERE ARE WRITINGS HOW THEYWANTED TO MAKE SURE IT WAS

BROADLY DISTRIBUTED AMONG THECITIZENRY.

>> Stephen: THE CAP FORPRIMARY AND GENERAL ELECTION IN

EVERY TWO-YEAR CYCLE IS$5200.

I LIKE WHAT JUSTICE THOMAS HADTO SAY IN HIS ADDENDUM TO THE

DECISION, I ASSUME.

HE SAID THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANYCAP.

IS HE AHEAD OF HIS TIME-- BYWHICH I MEAN ABOUT MAYBE ONE

YEAR?

>> PROBABLY BECAUSE NOW THAT THEDEFINITION OF CORRUPTION IS SO

NARROW THAT IT'S ONLY BRIBERY,IT WILL BE RELATIVELY EASY FOR

THE CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES, ALLFIVE OF THEM, TO SAY THAT

THERE'S NO LEGITIMATE RATIONALEFOR CONGRESS TO IMPOSE EVEN THE

$5200 PER CANDIDATE, PER CYCLELIMIT.

IT DOES FEEL LIKE THAT IS AROUNDTHE CORNER.

>> Stephen: ROBERTS SAYSINGRATIATION IS NOT CORRUPTION.

DO YOU THINK INGRATIATION ISCORRUPTION, OR IS IT JUST

ENSHRINING THE CONSTITUTIONALRIGHTS TO GOOD MANNERS?

>> I DON'T THINK INGRATIATION ISTHE SAME AS GOOD MANNERS.

>> Stephen: REALLY?

IF SOMEONE GIVES ME $1 MILLIONFOR MY CAMPAIGN, A LITTLE NOTE

WOULD BE NICE.

>> BUT A LITTLE NOTE -->> Stephen: AND FLOWERS AND

MAYBE E.P.A. REGULATIONS BEINGCUT?

>> I GUESS IT'S THE STEP FROMTHE FLOWERS TO THE E.P.A.

REGULATION BEING CUT THAT IWORRY ABOUT.

I'M ALL FOR THE FLOWERS?

>> EMILY, THANK YOU VERY MUCHFOR JOINING ME.

EMILY BAZELON, "SLATE.COM"WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

EMILY BAZELON, "SLATE.COM"WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK,

EVERYBODY.

FOLKS, IF YOU'RE PAYINGATTENTION TO THE NEWS, YOU KNOW

THAT AMERICA IS IN DECLINE.

WE ARE CIRCLING THE DRAIN ANDOUR ONLY HOPE IS THAT WE'RE TOO

FAT TO GO DOWN IT.

( LAUGHTER )AND NOBODY KNOWS THAT BETTER

THAN BILL O'REILLY.

>> DURING PRESIDENT OBAMA'S FIVEYEARS IN OFFICE MEDIAN INCOME

HAS DROPPED, INDIVIDUALAMERICANS ARE LESS SECURE.

THE JOB MARKET REMAINS SLUGGISH.

THE COUNTRY IS WEAKER.

MILLIONS OF AMERICANS ARE NOWLOOKING FOR HANDOUTS.

THE U.S.A. HAS LOST ITS WILL TOCONFRONT DANGEROUS SITUATIONS.

BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK.

POOR, ILL-EDUCATED WOMEN.

THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS CORRUPT.

THE CYNICAL ENTERTAINMENTINDUSTRY PEDALS GARBAGE, CRUDE

BEHAVIOR AT SPORTS ARENAS ISTOLERATED.

>> Stephen: YES, CRUDEBEHAVIOR IN SPORTS ARENAS.

SO PEOPLE ARE SO IMPOLITE THEYREFUSE TO EVEN PARTICIPATE IN

THE WAVE.

( LAUGHTER )( APPLAUSE )

AND--( APPLAUSE )

O'REILLY KNOWS-- O'REILLY KNOWSTHE SOURCE OF OUR DECLINE.

>> WHY IS OUR NATION IN DECLINE?

TONIGHT I CAN GIVE YOU THIS--EQUALITY IS WHAT IS HURTING

PRESIDENT OBAMA.

THE LEFT HAS SEIZED THAT WORD"EQUALITY" TO PUSH ITS

PROGRESSIVE AGENDA.

WE HAVE INCOME EQUALITY.

MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

GENDER EQUALITY.

AND ON AND ON AND ON.

>> Stephen: YES, INCOME,MARRIAGE, GENDER, ON AND ON AND

ON.

AND YET THOSE LAST THREE DON'TMEAN ANYTHING, BUT THEY DON'T

MEAN ANYTHING EQUALLY.

( LAUGHTER )( APPLAUSE )

AND BILL LAID OUT WHY FIGHTINGFOR EQUALITY IS POINTLESS.

>> EACH HUMAN BEING IS BORN WITHABILITIES BUT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL

ABILITIES.

I WILL NEVER HAVE PHYSICALEQUALITY WITH MY FELLOW IRISH

MAN SHAQUILLE O'NEAL.

HE'S BIGGER AND STRONGER THAN IAM BY NATURE.

I WILL NEVER BE AS SMART ASEINSTEIN.

AS TALENTED AS MOZART.

OR AS KIND AS MOTHER TERESA.

>> Stephen: OH, COME ON,BILL, THAT LIST IS TOO MODEST.

YOU'LL ALSO NEVER BE AS FAST ASUSAIN BOLT, AS EMOTIONALLY

MATURE AS A TODDLER, ORUNDERSTAND HOW TIDES WORK AS

WELL AS A MIDDLE SCHOOLER.

YOU'LL NEVER BE AS STRONG AS ASILVERBACKS GORILLA, OR BE ABLE

TO CAMOUFLAGE YOURSELF AS WELLAS A FLOUNDER OR HOLD A SMALL

SACK OF PAPERS TOGETHER AS WELLAS A BINDER CLIP OR HAVE THE

FUEL EFFICIENCY AND SMOOTHHANDLING OF THE 2014 TOYOTA

AVALON.

O'REILLY'S LOGIC IS AIRTIGHT.

SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER AT SOMETHINGS THAN OTHER PEOPLE ARE AT

THAT THING.

SO TRYING TO ACHIEVE EQUALITY ISUNNATURAL.

TAKE INCOME INEQUALITY.

SHAQUILLE O'NEAL IS TALLER THANBILL O'REILLY.

THEREFORE, THE RICHEST 1% OFAMERICANS SHOULD CONTROL 40% OF

THE NATION'S WEALTH.

( LAUGHTER )AND BILL IS NOT QUITE AS GOOD

LOOKING AS GEORGE CLOONEY, SOMEN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO

MARRY EACH OTHER, NOT EVEN BILLAND GEORGE WHICH IS TOO BAD

BECAUSE THE KIDS WOULD BEBEAUTIFUL.

( LAUGHTER )THE POINT IS IF BILL O'REILLY IS

NO EINSTEIN-- AND I THINK WE CANALL AGREE HE'S NOT-- THEN

EQUALITY IS FOREVER OUT OF OURREACH.

>> THE TRUTH IS THERE WILL NEVERBE EQUALITY IN THIS WORLD.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, AN OPIUM-LACEDDREAM.

>> Stephen: YES, I BELIEVETHAT'S WHAT DR. KING WAS TALKING

ABOUT IN HIS "I HAVE ANOPIUM-LACED DREAM" SPEECH.

COME ON!

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )THERE AREN'T ANY MOUNTAINTOPS ON

THE WASHINGTON MALL.

THAT GUY WAS TRIPPING BALLS.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK,EVERYBODY.

MY GUEST TONIGHT IS A NATIONALSECURITY JOURNALIST WHO IS

CRITICAL OF THE C.I.A.'S OWNWARFARE.

I AM HESITANT TO SITNEXT TO HIM.

PLEASE WELCOME MARK MAZZETTI.

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ).

HEY, MARK, NICE TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR COMING BACK.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Stephen: AS I SAID YOU'REA PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING

CORRESPONDENT FOR THE "NEW YORKTIMES."

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "THE WAY OFTHE KNIFE," NOW AVAILABLE IN

PAPERBACK AND IT'S ABOUT THEC.I.A., IT BEING A SECRET ARMY,

AND SOMETHING CALLED "THE WAR ATTHE ENDS OF THE EARTH."

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHERE IS THE END OF THE EARTH?

( LAUGHTER ).

>> A FEW PLACES, MANY PLACES.

>> Stephen: OKAY.

>> THE IDEA I WANTED TO CAPTUREIN THE BOOK WAS THAT THERE'S

BEEN SOME WHOLE HISTORYPOST-9/11 THAT HASN'T BEEN IN

IRAQ AND HASN'T BEEN INAFGHANISTAN.

THERE'S BEEN THIS WHOLE WHAT ICALL THE SHADOW WAR IN PLACES

LIKE PAKISTAN, YEMEN, AND PARTSOF AFRICA WHERE WAR IS BEING

WAGED OUTSIDE OF DECLARED WARZONES AND THIS IS AS MUCH A PART

OF THE HISTORY OF 2001 ON THANWHAT HAPPENED IN IRAQ AND

AFGHANISTAN.

>> Stephen: DO YOU THINK THEC.I.A. IS DOING THE RIGHT THING

THESE DAYS?

>> THEY'RE NOW REALLY MORE THANEVER A PARAMILITARY

ORGANIZATION.

>> Stephen: DO YOU THINKTHAT'S A GOOD IDEA?

>> I THINK THAT THEY'RE-- IT'SGOOD AND BAD.

>> Stephen: COME ON, PICK ASIDE.

( LAUGHTER )GROW A PAIR.

>> I THINK THERE'S PROBLEMS WHENYOU HAVE WARS THAT ARE WAGED IN

SECRET WITHOUT A LOT OF PUBLICACCOUNTABILITY.

>> Stephen: OKAY, NOW WHO ISRESPONSIBLE FOR THE C.I.A.

BECOMING THAT WAY?

IS IT BUSH OR OBAMA?

AND I'LL TELL YOU IF I AGREEWITH YOU.

>> IT'S ACTUALLY BOTH.

>> Stephen: BOTH?

>> IT'S ACTUALLY BOTH.

>> Stephen: THEN I CAN'T MAKEUP MY MIND.

I'M WITH YOU.

IT'S GOOD AND BAD AS YOU SAID.

>> IT STARTED WITH BUSH,CERTAINLY SINCE AFTER 9/11, BUT

IT'S EMBRACED BY OBAMA DURINGTHE LAST FIVE YEARS.

THERE'S A LOT OF CONTINUITY WITHTHE COUNTER-TERRORISM PROGRAMS

BETWEEN BUSH AND OBAMA.

>> Stephen: PETRAEUS, IN ONE OFTHOSE RECORDINGS THAT CAME OUT

WHEN HE WAS FOUND OUT TO BE YOUKNOW HAVING A LITTLE

SOMETHING-SOMETHING ON THE SIDE.

IN ONE OF THE RECORDINGS HE SAIDHE WANTED TO BE THE HEAD OF THE

C.I.A. BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THEACTION WAS GOING TO BE

MILITARILY.

IS THIS WHAT HE WAS TALKINGABOUT, THAT THE C.I.A. IS DOING

A LOT OF MILITARY OPERATIONSTHAT ARE EFFECTIVE IN THE WAR ON

TERROR, THE ARMY IS NOT ALLOWEDTO DO?

>> THEY'RE DOING PARAMILITARYOPERATIONS IN PLACES WHERE THE

ARMY IS NOT ALLOWED TO GO.

>> Stephen: ARE WE AT WARWITH THOSE PLACES ONCE WE'RE

BLOWING STUFF UP THERE?

>> WE'RE IN THOSE PLACES,SOMETIMES NOT AT WAR WITH THOSE

PLACES.

WE WERE AT WAR IN PAKISTAN BUTNOT NECESSARILY AT WAR WITH THE

GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTANWE'RE IN WAR IN YEMEN --

>> Stephen: THAT'S THREADINGA VERY NARROW NEEDLE THERE.

WE ARE BLOWING UP PEOPLE IN YOURCOUNTRY, BUT WE LIKE YOU.

( LAUGHTER ).

>> RIGHT.

>> Stephen: OKAY, SO THEY'REDOING THIS MOSTLY WITH DRONES,

RIGHT?

>> A LOT OF DRONES.

THERE HAS BEEN ESCALATION OFSPECIAL OPERATIONS MISSIONS

AROUND THE GLOBE IN PARTS OFAFRICA.

SO NOT JUST THE C.I.A.

IT'S ALSO PARTS OF THE PENTAGONTHAT HAVE SORT OF BLENDED

TOGETHER OVER THE YEARS TO DOTHESE KIND OF SECRET MISSION.

>> Stephen: THE BLOWING STUFFUP WITH DRONES-- THERE WAS A LOT

OF CRITICISM AND OBAMA SAYS HE'SNOT DOING IT ANYMORE OF

STRAPPING GUYS TO TABLES ANDPOURING WATER OVER THEIR FACE OR

MAKING THEM STAND UP FOR 36HOURS OR IN A BRIGHTLY LIT ROOM

FOR SEVEN DAYS OR SOMETHING LIKETHAT.

BUT THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ABIG PUBLIC OUTCRY ABOUT BLOWING

THEM UP REAL GOOD IN SOME PLACESANDY AND ROCKY.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE DIFFERENCE?

>> I THINK THERE ARE DIFFERENTREASONS FOR THAT.

I THINK THAT SOME DEMOCRATS HAVEBEEN LESS HESITANT TO CRITICIZE

A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT ABOUTTHIS.

BUT THERE'S ALSO DIFFERENCES IN,YOU KNOW, WARFARE WHEN YOU HAVE

SOMEONE IN YOUR CUSTODY, YOU'RESUPPOSED TO TREAT THEM HUMANELY,

VERSUS A BATTLEFIELD KILL.

THIS IS THE ARGUMENT THAT'S MADE--

>> Stephen: LET'S JUST NEVERHAVE THEM IN OUR CUSTODY.

>> EXACTLY.

>> Stephen: WHAT DOES "THEWAY OF THE KNIFE" MEAN?

IT SOUNDS LIKE SOME SHORT OFKUNG FU OR A NEW COOKING SHOW ON

THE FOOD NETWORK WHERE THEYASSASSINATE A RIB ROAST.

WHAT IS "THE WAY OF THE KNIFE"?

>> IT CAME FROM A SPEECH JOHNBRENNAN GAVE SEVERAL YEARS AGO

CONTRASTING THE BIG WARS INAFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ CALLING IT

THE HAMMER, SAYING THE OBAMAADMINISTRATION IN THESE OTHER

WARS USES A SCALPEL, AND ASCALPEL IS SORT OF A EUPHEMISM

TO IMPLY SOMETHING IS WITHOUTCOSTS OR CONSEQUENCES.

SO I USED KNIFE BECAUSE KNIFEFIGHTS ARE FAR BLOODIER.

>> Stephen: DO YOU THINKTHERE'S ANY WAY WAGING THESE

MILITARY ACTIONS IN COUNTRIESWHERE THERE IS NOT A DECLARED

WAR COULD EVER COME BACK TO BITEUS IN THE ASS?

AND IF SO, ISN'T THAT KIND OF AGOOD THING BECAUSE HAVE YOU SEEN

AMERICA'S ASS?

IT COULD USE A COUPLE OF BITESTAKEN OUT OF IT.

>> IT CERTAINLY HAS THATPOTENTIAL.

SECRET OPERATIONS THROUGHOUTHISTORY, THERE'S BLOW-BACK A LOT

OF TIMES.

THE SORT OF MORE YOU HAVEOPERATIONS CARRIED OUT WITHOUT A

WHOLE LOT OF PUBLIC OVERSIGHT OREVEN INTERNAL GOVERNMENTAL

OVERSIGHT, THE MORE CHANCE OFTHINGS GOING WRONG.

SO CERTAINLY ONE OF THEQUESTIONS IS HOW MUCH OF THE--

OF THESE OPERATIONS RADICALIZEPEOPLE WHO WEREN'T PREVIOUSLY

DISPOSED TO THESE MILITANTS?

AND SO THAT'S SOMETHING WE'REGOING TO HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION

TO.

>> Stephen: ARE THE THINGSIN THE BOOK TRULY REVELATIONS OR

ARE YOU A C.I.A. OPERATIVEWORKING FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES"

TELLING US THINGS TO PUT US OFFTHE SCENT OF THE REAL THINGS

HAPPENING IN THE C.I.A.?

>> EVERYTHING THAT I-- IS INTHERE IS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE

TRUE, AND WHAT I'VE REPORTED.

SOME REPORTED IN THE PASTTHERE'S A LOT OF NEW INFORMATION

IN THE BOOK.

AND AS I SAID, IT'S AS MUCH OF ASORT OF HISTORY OF THIS PERIOD

AS CAN BE TOLD WHEN THERE'SSTILL A LOT THAT'S STILL

CLASSIFIED.

>> Stephen: LOUD AND CLEAR.

MARK, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

MARK MAZZETTI.

THE BOOK IS "THE WAY OF THEKNIFE."

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

>> Stephen: THAT'S IT FOR THEREPORT, EVERYBODY.

GOOD NIGHT.

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