John Heilemann

  • Aired:  01/04/12
  •  | Views: 12,898

Journalist John Heilemann examines Rick Santorum's rise in the Iowa caucus and the potential direction of his campaign. (6:33)

EVERYBODY.

MY GUEST TONIGHT IS THE NATIONAL

AFFAIRS EDITOR FOR "NEW YORK"

MAGAZINE AND POLITICAL ANALYST

FOR MSNPC.

HE'S HERE TO HIDE FROM ED

SCHULTZ.

PLEASE WELCOME JOHN HEILEMANN.

[CHEERING AND APPLAUSE]

HEY, JOHN, GOOD TO SEE YOU

AGAIN.

PLEASE, SIT DOWN.

ALL RIGHT, SIR.

WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> OH, I'M SO HAPPY TO BE HERE,

STEPHEN.

>> Stephen: LAST TIME YOU WERE

HERE, YOU WERE HERE THE TALK

ABOUT YOUR 2008 TELL-ALL BOOK

"GAME CHANGE" WHICH YOU WROTE

WITH MARK HALPERIN.

IT WAS THE BEHIND-THE-SCENES

STORY OF THE 2008 CAMPAIGN.

YOU COBBLED TOGETHER THIS

INSIDER INFORMATION OFF THE

RECORD CONVERSATIONS.

YOU'RE ONE OF THESE POLITICAL

INSIDERS.

YOU KNOW WHAT GOES ON BEHIND THE

SCENES.

IS THERE A LOT OF EGG ON YOU

GUYS' FACE THIS YEAR BECAUSE

NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT

WHAT'S HAPPENING.

YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO FIGURE IT

OUT.

YOU THINK IT'S COLONEL MUSTARD

WITH THE CANDLESTICK IN THE

CONSERVATORY.

TURNS OUT IT'S RICK SANTORUM

WITH A SWEATER VEST IN IOWA.

YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW THIS YEAR.

>> NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING.

IT'S THE MOST UNPREDICTABLE YEAR

CERTAINLY IN MY POLITICAL LIFE

TIME.

THAT'S WHAT'S MAKE IT SUCH A

GRIPPING AND EXCITING CONTEST

AND SUCH GREAT FODDER FOR "GAME

CHANGE TWO"

>> Stephen: YOU'RE PLUGGING A

BOOK THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

YOU'RE REALLY A KING SHILL.

>> YOU STARTED IT.

>> Stephen: DID I?

LET'S END IT.

>> OKAY.

STOOP STEEP WHAT DO WE EXPECT

RIGHT NOW?

SANTORUM, THIS IS A VICTORY.

HE MIGHT HAVE LOST, BUT IT'S A

VICTORY.

>> OH, YEAH, LOOK.

THE NIGHT STARTED WITH RICK

SANTORUM IN AN UNCOMFORTABLE

POSITION, LIKE A NIGHTMARE

SCENARIO.

HE WAS IN A THREE-WAY WITH TWO

OTHER MEN.

AND THEN GRADUALLY RON PAUL FELL

BACK AND NOW HE'S IN THE

SITUATION WHERE HE WINS WHAT THE

SANTORUM CAMPAIGN WOULD CALL A

VIRTUAL TIE AND THE ROMNEY

CAMPAIGN WOULD CALL AN

EIGHT-VOTE LANDSLIDE.

HE COMES OUT WITH A HUGE AMOUNT

OF MOMENTUM OUT OF IOWA HAINES

NOW GOING TO GO UP TO NEW

HAMPSHIRE AND RUN WHAT I

THINK... WHAT LOOKS TO ME LIKE

PAT BUCHANAN'S CAMPAIGN AGAINST

BOB DOLE.

>> Stephen: POPULISM AND

PITCHFORKS?

HE'S A MODERN-DAY REAGAN.

>> REAGAN HAD THIS SUNNY

OPTIMISM AND HE SOUNDED

PRESIDENTIAL.

RICK SANTORUM IS KIND OF A

EARNEST FIGURE AND HE SOUNDS

MORE LIKE A COMBINATION OF EDDIE

HASKELL, JOHN KERRY AND JERRY

FALWELL.

IT'S LIKE SENATORIAL PLUS

RELIGIOUS, AND THAT'S NOT WHERE

REAGAN LIVED.

>> Stephen: LET'S TALK ABOUT

THE GUY WHO TWO WEEKS, THREE

WEEKS AGO LOOKED LIKE THE GUY

WHO HAD THIS THING SOWN UP, NEWT

GINGRICH.

>> YEAH.

>> Stephen: OKAY.

HE REALLY SEEMS LIKE HIS

NUMBER-ONE GOAL IS TO STICK A

SHARPENED SCREWDRIVER INTO MITT

ROMNEY'S LUNG.

>> YEAH.

THE TEDDY BEAR IS ANGRY.

AND THERE IS...

>> Stephen: THE CLAWS ARE OUT.

>> THERE IS NOTHING IN POLITICS

MORE FRIGHTENING THAN A

VINDICTIVE TEDDY BEAR.

>> Stephen: I DON'T KNOW IF

IT'S TRUE, BUT SOME PEOPLE SAID

HE WAS RUNNING TO BASICALLY GET

HIS BRAND OUT THERE AGAIN, GET

HIS SPEAKING FEES BACK UP, GET

ANOTHER BOOK OUT THERE AGAIN,

AND HE'S GOT THAT.

HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING

MORE, RIGHT?

SO NOW HE CAN JUST FOCUS HIMSELF

AND HE CAN JUST TURN HIMSELF

INTO A HUMAN WEAPON.

HE CAN JUST MARCH UP TO THE

ROMNEY CAMPAIGN IN NEW HAMPSHIRE

AND GO,... HE DOES NOT CARE WHAT

HAPPENS TO HIM.

>> A WEIRD THING HAPPENS.

A LOT GO INTO IT THINK I'LL GO

ON A BOOK TOUR, HERMAN CAIN WAS

LIKE THIS, TOO.

I'LL SELL SOME BOOKS AND GET A

TALK SHOW ON FOX.

THEY BECOME A FRONT-RUNNER THAT.

MOMENT MAKES THEM THINK, HEY, I

COULD BE PRESIDENT.

>> Stephen: IS IT ROMNEY'S

REALLY?

>> THE LAST TIME THERE WAS AN

INEVITABLE NOMINEE, IT WAS

HILLARY CLINTON, AND WE KNOW HOW

THAT WORKED OUT.

>> THERE ARE ONLY INEVITABLE

REPUBLICANS.

>> IT'S TRUE.

ROMNEY DID SOMETHING IN IOWA

THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

HE CRIPPLED THE TWO CANDIDATES

THEY WERE MOST WORRIED ABOUT,

RICK PERRY, AND GINGRICH

GINGRICH.

THEY THOUGHT THOSE GUYS COULD

BEAT ROMNEY.

THEY GOT THE TWO GUYS THEY

WANTED TO RUN AGAINST, RON PAUL

AND RICK SANTORUM.

THE PROBLEM IS THERE'S 75% OF

THE PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN

PARTY WHO DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR

MITT ROMNEY.

>> Stephen: WHY DON'T THEY

HAVE, WHEN THE TIME COME, I'LL

HOLD MY NOSE AND THINK OF

ENGLAND.

>> IT'S CLOSE YOUR EYES AND

THINK OF ENGLAND...

>> Stephen: NO, YOU'VE GOT TO

KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN TO KNOW WHAT

YOU'RE DOING.

>> EVEN IF IT'S NEWT GINGRICH?

>> Stephen: YOU KNOW IT'S NEWT

GINGRICH.

WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT?

>> I HAVE NO IDEA.

THE 75% OF THE REPUBLICANS WHO

DON'T WANT MITT ROMNEY?

>> WHAT ABOUT THE HARD-CORE

CONSERVATIVES WHO WANT HARD-CORE

CONSERVATIVE.

DO THEY NOT GET A VOICE?

THEY'RE THE VAST MAJORITY.

>> THIS IS THE THREAT THAT

ROMNEY FACES IS HAVING NOW

EFFECTIVELY GOTTEN MICHELE

BACHMANN OUT OF THE RACE FOR

REAL, RICK PERRY IS PROBABLY

MORE OR LESS OUT OF THE RACE.

YOU COULD SEE A CONSOLIDATION OF

THE CONSERVATIVE HARD CORE TEA

PARTY PARTY, EVANGELICALS AROUND

RICK SANTORUM IN SOUTH CAROLINA

AS GINGRICH DOES THE THINGS THAT

YOU DESCRIBE, DESTROYING ROMNEY,

LAYING WASTE, PILLAGING, RAPING,

DOING WHATEVER HE HAS TO DO, AND

RICK SANTORUM OF ALL PEOPLE,

RICK SANTORUM COULD BE THE

CONSERVATIVE CONSENSUS CANDIDATE

WHO KNOCKS MITT ROMNEY OUT.

>> Stephen: THAT WOULD BE

WONDERFUL.

I MEAN, THAT WOULD BE ENJOYABLE

IS WHAT I MEANT, TO REPORT ON.

>> IT WOULD BE AND, YOU KNOW, IT

WOULD... TO SEE RICK SANTORUM AT

THE TOP OF THE TICKET WOULD BE,

THE REPUBLICAN TICKET, HE WOULD

BE AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET AND

WE'D SPECULATE ABOUT WHO IS

GOING TO BE ON THE BOTTOM.

>> Stephen: I SEE HIM AS A

TOP.

>> THIS MAY BE THE MOMENT FOR

YOU TO ANSWER A CALL TO SERVICE.

>> Stephen: AGAIN, I'LL CLOSE

MY EYES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

JOHN HEILEMANN.

WE'LL BE RIGHT B

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